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NCD Missions Mobilization Podcast
Conversations to help generate healthy relationships between local churches and Alliance International Workers
NCD Missions Mobilization Podcast
Rob Mapstone Interview
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When God decides to do something new, it's our job to pray, count the cost, and offer him a willing, "Yes." Rob Mapstone shares the story of how God continues to send out new workers from their "little church," The River.
We apologize that the audio for Peter's side of the conversation was damaged during recording; we've done our best to improve it. Rob's side of the conversation was better preserved. Thanks for your understanding.
If you'd like to contact Rob, you can reach him at mapstoner@ncdcma.org.
Learn more about Alliance Missions in the North Central District here:
Staying in tune to what it is that God is doing and not letting our vision get in the way of what it is that He is doing through us. Because God did make us into a multiplying, like He did do the multiplication goal just in a different way than I expected.
SPEAKER_00Hey listeners, this is Peter Mayhew with the North Central District Missions Mobilization Podcast. We are back for a new season, and I'm really excited to share the conversations that I've been having with different leaders across our district. Our podcast goal is to help generate healthy engagement between our local churches and international workers. And I love the opportunity that we get to hear from impactful leaders who are personally saying yes to God's missional call to the lost, both near and far. And while they do that, they are encouraging their church communities to come along with them. So we're launching this season with Rob Mapstone, our district director of recruitment and placement, and also the pastor of the river. God's been doing some amazing things at the river, and Rob has been choosing to say yes to the multiplying work of raising and sending leaders out of their community and into the world. With that yes comes the adventure and challenge of celebrating and sustaining this deployment of people that he and the river love. His insights are valuable to any church looking to wrap their culture around Jesus' mission of going into the world and making disciples. So let's dive in. You've got a pretty incredible story. A lot of different hats. So, Rob, would you like to uh introduce yourself to us today?
SPEAKER_03Sure, yes. Like you mentioned, I do wear a lot of different hats. Um I'm actually a the pastor at the River Alliance Church in Chaska, Minnesota. Um that's a part-time role. It used to be full-time, but is now part-time. I also work for our district as a um in the area of candidate recruitment and um placement, working with churches to hire pastors. Uh but then I also um part of the faculty at Crown College, so that's uh about half-time there teaching in the Bible theology and ministry department. Um but yeah, I've been I've been in ministry for about 30 years. I actually uh kind of took a non-traditional route. I uh was a uh graphic designer. I have a degree in art from the University of Colorado and uh uh did that for about eight years before getting feeling the call into ministry and then um have been serving in different churches along the way. Actually, I went through our the Alliance's ministerial study program and then eventually got a master's with Crown and definitely different kind of track getting into ministry. But yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's always cool to hear the journey that we go on to the places where we are today. All right, so the icebreaker question. We always do this. I'm curious. So when writing science fiction, okay, I don't know if you write any science fiction, I'm against it. You don't, I don't, but I heard it said that when you write science fiction, what you do is you you change one feature of the world. Like you incorporate a technology that modifies and changes one feature of the world, and then you think about what would happen next. So if you could create a technology that would change one feature of the world to send us off into a science fiction future, what would it be?
SPEAKER_03Well, I've uh I actually would love to be able to teleport. So um I don't know that uh how that would ever happen. I enjoy watching things like Star Trek, Star Trek, and and uh um would love that idea to be able to just go from one place to another um in the blink of an eye. I just think that would be really great. And I think it would be great on a personal level. I mean, think about missionally what that could do. And I mean there's all kinds of great features, but yeah.
SPEAKER_00Where would be the first place you'd teleport?
SPEAKER_03Oh, good question. Probably the first thing I would do would be to go to visit some of my kids who don't live near here. But as far as personally, I'd probably go to maybe Italy or something to experience that. That's pretty cool. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Cool. Uh when did missions to you as a pastor, what did it first kind of settle on your heart? Passionate reporting.
SPEAKER_03Sure. Um so growing up, I uh my dad actually worked for the national office of the Christian Missionary Alliance. And so growing up, we often had missionaries in our home. Um I remember we I used to go in with my father to the national office, and a lot of the people, especially in NIAC, that's the place I remember most when I was a kid, um, a lot of the people in the offices, the the administrative assistants or some of the directors were former missionaries and pastors. And so it was always part of like a just a natural part of my life. And then as I grew up and and um got into ministry myself, when we first came here to the river to replant the church uh about 15 years ago, uh, we didn't have an office space. Actually, we still don't, we still you just rent a building. Um and so I would go to a local coffee shop, and that local coffee shop was a place that I began to uh understand my own part of the Great Commission, like like to realize, like it became more a part of my identity as I started to see that as my local mission field. Um, and then connected that with the idea that I was part of this local thing that was also happening around the world through missionaries, and it allowed me to feel like something that I owned in a way that I hadn't before. Um, and it helped me to experience the Great Commission in a new way where I I wanted to be a part of um making disciples here, but also around the world. And so it just became a little more um of something that was internalized in ways maybe that it hadn't been before. And uh and then as I've continued to grow as a pastor and and we've sent out missionaries and and I've been like just been able to to to have that passion grow. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So would you say has there been like a maybe a particular missionary, particular worker or like an event or maybe even a passage of scripture that has sort of shaped your conviction around standing?
SPEAKER_03There's been a couple formative moments. So I've been able to go on some missions trips over the years. When I when I first got into ministry, that there was a couple of different times we were able to go on missions trips. Um, there's been some things that have stood out, right? Um actually, even before my first missions trip, when I was still a graphic designer, I was uh connected with a couple who were um doing missions in Chile, uh the Volsteads. And uh um they had asked me to actually be the graphic designer to do their newsletter, to send out. And so I did that for years. And when I went to leave that and was feeling called into ministry to move to Indiana, um, I they sent me actually one of the first ever Mapuche Bibles for the Bible that they had translated into the language of the Mapuche people. Um and uh it just like resonated with me. Like I was a part of this even as a graphic designer, right? Then as I um was in my first church, I went on a missions trip to Africa, connected with some of the missionaries there, and one of the missionaries was doing some traveling and uh his laptop went on the fritz. It was it didn't work anymore. So I gave him my laptop, and I'm like, I can always get a new laptop, right? And uh it turns out, so he wrote me a while later and let me know that on his travels, he actually went to one of the areas that was translating the Bible into another to one of the tribal languages. And when he was there, they had some computer problems, and so he gave them the laptop that I had given him. So all of a sudden, my laptop was being used to translate scripture into the the language of these people that had never had the Bible in their language before, and that just struck a chord with me, right? And so I started to see like moments like that started to reveal to me the part that I could be playing in missions without ever even being overseas, right? You mentioned scripture. I think one of the scripture passages that has really stood out to me over the years is um Matthew 9 and in Luke 10, where uh Jesus talks about how we can ask the Lord of the harvest to send labors into the harvest field. That has stuck with me as being like Jesus actually calling us to pray and to ask for more labors. It caused me to understand that there is a need, right? That we don't have enough labors out there, that there's a harvest that is ready, that God is doing, God is preparing even without us being there. Um, and that we have a responsibility to be a part of solving, like fulfilling this commission. And then the the other event that I think was very pivotal was in uh at General Council several years ago. I was there as a worker, and um they during the memorial time when they read the names of people who've passed, they invited us to have um to just stand when a name was read of somebody that was instrumental in our development that helped prepare us, right? And so I find myself standing at different moments, and and it caused me to reflect um on these people that that God had used to invest in me, to develop me, to prepare me. But then it also caused me to think about well, what about what about me? Like what and when what about when my name is maybe read one day? Yeah, who would be standing up, right? And so it just spurred me on to kind of envision how could I be investing in other people the way I was invested in so that the kingdom could be furthered. Yeah. So I think those are kind of some of the pivotal moments.
SPEAKER_00I've appreciated in some of these conversations I got to have, there's this theme that will rise up and uh you're and what you're saying. It's not the most obvious thing that God starts using in our lives to impact his kingdom, you know, like the idea of giving your laptop. Who would have thought that's potentially like the call that would shape your life a little bit and draw you into this would be a gift that you give of a laptop to somebody, you know? But then God uses that to leave an impact somewhere else, and then that changes us as well. And this sort of surprising, creative the there is no limit to the sort of things that God can do with our lives. Sure. Has been a theme I've seen in other spaces too. It's cool to do that again. Well, one of the reasons that I was really excited to have have this conversation come up is about a year ago, your church, the river shared at our district council is this just jaw-dropping statistic. It was it's just wild to think about, I think. The river has sent over 60 workers into ministry or international work, you know, you know, that they sent people out stateside, international both. And that number is actually higher. Is that right? It's higher than your average attendance.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00You send out more than your average attendance on a radio. That's just wild. And I'm excited to explore how that sort of sending culture was developed and became a reality for you guys. So just initially, what were some of the first practical steps that you uh your church took to transform, you know, this call that all churches had to carry into Jesus mission, but to transform into like a vibrant culture of preparing and sending workers?
SPEAKER_03I wish I could say that I had this great strategic plan that uh has just been unfolding over the last decade or so, but it really wasn't. I um I did not know so this was this is my the river is my second senior pastor, right? And we came and came to replant, restart the church um back in two thousand the end of 2009. So it's been over 15 years. But um when we first came, we didn't have a building, right? And so there was a uh we were meeting in a movie theater, we're s have moved around since then, but uh I I had a couple different places I would work from, right? One of those places was a local coffee shop uh where I would uh just go to work and I began to intentionally make that my mission field, right? As time developed, I realized more and more of a passion in my life that this is a this is a role that I have in in the coffee shop uh for missions. But then the other place was ground college. I would go to work from the library to my correspondence work and all of that. As I was there, I gradually started to just find myself mentoring, uh discipling students. And eventually led to me being invited to have a role with the Christian Michigan Alliance through the national office. They asked me to come on and be like a candidate recruitment development representative at Crown. As I started to do that, I realized that there was this passion, this value that I had for developing young people that I don't even think I had, I mean, I probably knew, but never fully recognized. And so it gave feat to some of those things that I mentioned earlier about wanting to develop people, feel the feelings that I had at council. And so I leaned into that. That became something that I was just doing more in that role. And then it obviously also translated into my church role. It also then allowed us to um so I I then went to my church and asked if I could go from full-time to part-time and we could use some of that money to hire somebody who could come in, a student, a former student who could come in and be a part of the of our ministry, and we could develop them with the idea that they'd be eventually sent off. And so that he was the first one who kind of then morphed into some of the things that we're we've done since then. But at the same time, God was also already like calling people from our congregation and um calling them into ministry. So we uh we were finding we actually had a a prayer team, um uh elders and and a few people that were uh would meet on Sunday morning before the service and we would pray. And over uh about a year and a half, uh three of the five of us that would meet um to pray got called into ministry and were heading off into other places. And and uh we just started to sense God is doing something. And so a lot of the, like you mentioned, these numbers, most of especially the early stuff was not at all intentional. It was simply God was doing it. And so we over time just said, okay, well, if this is what God is doing, let's be intentional about it. And as the national office came in with that job, that provided an opportunity for us to maybe get a little more intentional. That's how some of the early stuff began. I will also say, by the way, you mentioned the 60-some, some of those people are kids, right? Like family like it's a family being sent off, like but uh it's still yeah, so 60-some people. And our average attendant now part of the like if we send off um, you know, 20 people, in order just to even stay the same size, we have to add 20 people back, right? And so the church has experienced growth in that time, just simply to it's just that it's we're sending off the people that are coming, like it's kind of this continual process.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It's a it's a really fascinating picture of growth. Because it's maybe the uh the monthly reports or whatever, not the annual report looks like a certain number, right staying steady, but there's this other reality that there's been equipping, development, and sending that's happened. There's a type of multiplication that doesn't show up on that report in the same way. And that's that's pretty exciting. I think, yeah, that's just incredibly exciting.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's one of the things that we've had to grab hold of because it is a especially early on when God was just doing it, we weren't we hadn't necessarily grasped it as a vision yet.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, it could sometimes be almost depressing because like you're sending off, and you're not just sending off uh it's not just people are leaving, but you're sending your people who are like like most active in the church many times, the fully you know, good, strong disciples who are able to do all kinds of things in the church, and you're sending them off. And and uh I remember some of those early prayers where like, God, just can you give us some more people who can just be like here with us, like in the ministry to be able like we and uh one of the things that we noticed early on was God was faithful in doing that. We actually had a one of the first couples that ended up heading off was uh so Trent and Sharon Thornton were actually they had been overseas, had come back and were with us, and were um, he was one of my elders, they were involved in the church, and they then um over time felt called to go back overseas. Um at the same time, there was a there was another couple that was being called into ministry that were heading out to take over the church in Arlington, Minnesota. And so here we had two of our elders, two of our good leaders that were leaving, two of our healthy couples. And I remember praying, God, I don't know what you're doing, but like how do we, like, how do we continue to lead when we these leaders keep going? Like, what's gonna happen? I remember as I was walking around praying, it was on a Sunday morning before the service, I looked out the window and I saw Gary and Betty Benedict walking into the church. And I was like, what in the world is happening? And they came in, he was just fin getting ready to finish up his term as the president of the alliance. And they came into the they came to the church just because they were visiting, looking at houses and stuff, thinking of moving back to the area. And he came to the river and um he walked in and talked and with us and and everything. And then I didn't know he was coming. And then at the end of the service he left. And the only thing he said to me as he was left is boy, your church is young. And I remember thinking, we're probably never seeing him again. Like, I don't think he's coming back. And he then went back and finished up his term, eventually moved back into the area and then started coming to the river. And uh, and I remember asking him at some point, he just talked about how like, I mean, we're we're the small church, a very non-traditional church, a young church. And uh, but he felt like God's presence there and felt like we were welcoming and just all kinds of things, and he was willing to be involved. Before all of that happened, I had no idea whether or not he'd actually come. But in the moment when I was praying and I saw him walking in the door, it's like God was saying, You I have resources, you don't even know. Like I can give you the president of the Christian missionary alliance to come to your church if I want, right? And uh it was just a good reminder to me that that this is God's church, right? And he could do what he wants.
SPEAKER_00That's good. That's a real fear, I think. That as I even think about my church context, I think about some of the people that I that might got like you can almost see God starting to work in this part of their lives where you wonder where that's gonna lead. Is that gonna lead away from here? And there's immediately this this fear that comes with like of like, but these are people that we know we love, that we serve with. So hearing that says so much, speaks so much into um confidence that God is going to bless our obedience to raise up disciples, make disciples and say yes to the different spaces that He's called us to, whether it be our closest knit community, Jerusalem, further out into Judea, Samaria, and then the ends of the ends of the earth. One of the things you mentioned uh was kind of at the beginning, it was God was just kind of doing stuff in people's lives and drawing them into this. And then you leaned into that more tensionally as you went along. But I'm curious, has there been stuff you've done that you've seen helpful and just helping regular, average, ordinary church members actually recognize that calling and see themselves as potential international or local workers?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's a good question. It it so, like I said, and I want to be very clear to make sure that that people are hearing this is what God has been doing at the river, right? I want to give him all that credit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03What we have done is simply recognize that that's where he was at work, that that's what he was doing. And we said, okay, let's get on board.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And so what what we began to do is to start to say, okay, well, if this is what God is doing, let's celebrate this. Let's um lean in on this, let's make this a part of of how we do ministry. And so we've tried to create an environment of sending, like a an environment where that is natural. Um we we make missions very big focus. Like we we have our uh our missions director person every two weeks comes up and shares, I guess you'd call it a missions moment. It's usually about 10, 15 minutes, where he shares a little bit about the stories of those that we've sent out, uh, specifically overseas. So of the people that we've sent out, not all of them have gone overseas, but um he specifically talks about those who've gone overseas, where they're at, what they're doing, and how we can be praying for them. And so, and then we spent some time. Praying for them. Like we spend quite a while just he invites people from the congregation to volunteer to pray for those people when we do that as part of the service. So uh it's a a good time of just keeping those like these are our people that we've sent out, and it has made that very natural, and people recognize these are this is part of our family. When somebody is sent off, we celebrate that. We gather people, we actually have a we have a worship time where we then talk about what's happening and we bring those people forward. We invite everybody in the church to come if they want to to lay hands on them, we pray for them and send them out kind of anti like Antioch. Um we celebrate that, make it a something that is like this is a natural part of who we are. So it it creates this mindset of this is the norm. It kind of like over time, didn't happen right away, but over time it it got into the DNA of our people. Yeah. And they recognize this. And then then one of the great things is those people that we've sent off then come back, right? They come back to visit and they they are a part of our service. Um, whenever they're here, they they will go out of their way to come and visit us. This this last year alone, we've had uh probably six different of families of people that we've sent off that have been able to come back this year just for a visit for a Sunday. And and anytime somebody comes back, we give a they give a little update about what's going on, no matter where they've gone. And if we haven't seen them in a while, we give them the opportunity to even to have the message, to like share whatever they would like to share. So so it's like family.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I love the practicality of that. It's it's not well, and I don't know if you do this as well, but it's not here's a discipleship course that leads to launching and sending, sign up for this program that then sends you the prep to. It's we celebrate and we see and we visualize, we we live this reality of sending.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00And as a result of that, people, that's the story that is presented to people on the radio. That's a gospel story that they encounter regularly, and it changes what they see as possible for their lives as well.
SPEAKER_03Um so parts of the ways of leaning it more structurally, we also do like we're constantly on the lookout for um people in our church who seem like maybe God is at work in their lives as far as you know, calling or whatever. We we kind of develop uh like our our focus is not really on sending vocational ministry.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Our focus is more on developing kingdom leaders. And so if somebody is there who wants to be developed in any way, we lean in on that to help them to grow as a kingdom leader. When we see, and we do that through discipleship and mentoring and and uh when we then see somebody who is maybe seeming like there's more of a calling on life to toward vocational, we invite them to get more involved. We we do we invite everybody to get involved, but we invite them even more and with the possibility of like we offer an internship, both unofficial and official internships. Once they get through an internship, if they're if there is like an interesting ongoing growth and development, we have residency programs. We've had a couple different residents. Um, and then we even will hire somebody like as an assistant or associate pastor for a while. But with each of these people, we're looking at it with what do we need to invest in you over the course of the time frame we have you so that you can be sent off here ready for whatever God has for you next. And so we kind of tailor make it toward the person, yeah, rather than having a program that this is what it looks like for everybody. Right.
SPEAKER_00So I love the fact that you that you know, this is tying back to something you said earlier, too, but you chose you're like, is there a way if I go part-time, can we use those resources for this? You've you have on the front end, and I'm saying you as the church, on the front end, you've said we want bandwidth in our finances to say yes to this sending reality, which is which sets you up now for this. And I think that's really practical, but also, you know, our wallets often show where our heart is. Yeah. So you you've talked a little bit about this idea, or you've talked a little bit about how you stay family connected, what's going to come through and go and hearing stories on a regular basis. Are there other ways that ongoing care for people that you've sent, are there other ways that you guys lived out?
SPEAKER_03I I'm glad you asked that because I think that one of the key components of this is that when people leave the river, they don't just so the go is family, right? Like we actually call them extended family. We have an extended family that is around the world. We actually uh those who've who've gone overseas specifically, stay part of our membership, even, right? Like they're still members of the river. We treat them like that. Like we let them know about, we keep them informed about all things that are going on at the river, newsletters and all that kind of thing. So many people in the church get those. Yeah. But in addition, our mission instructor is constant, it's in regular communication with them through texting, WhatsApp, or whatever. Other we might get an update and we're gonna pray for the for that missionary the next Sunday. So our uh mission instructor might contact them the night before just to see if there's any update, right? Um, we've even gotten some updates on because they know that we're doing this in Sunday morning, so they'll send us something very personal. Um, so that one of the ways we do it is by just maintaining a closer contact um with them. And part of that is that it is, I mean, these are these are our friends in our family, right? And some of them have family members who are still at the river or other close friends. And so there's this constant connection. It's not just like the missions director or the pastor that are staying connected with them, it's other people within the congregation. And so we're kind of up to date on the latest information. Like we try to create this family feel and understanding. We even had um, so one of our missionary families just came back for about a month, and it was because they were they're in a very difficult place, the place where they serve. And so they um the alliance had them come home for a little while to rest and do some other things. And so they were here with us, and they were they were at the church on a Sunday, and then a couple of days later they um had a gathering for people from different churches and other groups that supported them just to gather together and to talk. And and they had a question and answer period at that time. And one of the people asked the question, is this the first time you're sharing about all the things that have been happening where you're at? And they they started to answer yes, and then they paused and they said, Well, actually, we just shared at the river on Sunday, but that doesn't count because that's family, right? And I think that's a good way of saying it that or way of understanding it, yeah, is that these people who have gone out recognize that they're still family. Right. Many of them watch our Facebook live stream, right, um, on Sunday morning just to stay connected, just to they'll even sometimes make comments in the midst of it. It's a it kind of can get them through sometimes where they maybe don't feel like they have that same kind of community overseas. We also do other things like sending notes of encouragement or um like there's different special things that we can get involved with, or if they have special needs, they contact us so that we can um handle those. We we give to them financially as a church, as well as many of the people in within the church also contribute to them financially, individually as well. So yeah, we just make it a part of who we are.
SPEAKER_00Cool.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh so to put on a uh kind of a questioning hat, I guess. How how scalable? Like if I'm being a little bit of a cynic, like and I'm thinking about uh a church that is bringing in new people and sending out people and starting trying to say connected to everybody and the family keeps growing. How how scalable do you think this is? Like, do you think you can move on from you or are you gonna hit a point where it slows down, or do you think it's infinitely scalable?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I we've been wrestling with that question. And it is it's interesting because, like we said, the river is still very small.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And we've sent off I've just in the last two and a half years, God has sent off from the river 20 people into ministry. And those that was a bit of a concentrated number that we hadn't had prior. And it it takes a toll. Like these are also people that you care and love for and are and are really great to have at your church. And um, I began to notice a little bit of maybe some sending fatigue with the church. And so we've addressed that a little bit. We actually just hired um our most recent hire after because so before that, during that two and a half year process, we had about um three young people, in addition to myself, on staff. And all three of them and their families were sent off as well as a missionary family. It was a lot. So it was sending, and so almost like every six months we were sending another um family off. And I remember one of the people in our church as the as we were gathering around praying for them was praying, and God, would you replace them? Would you bring somebody else here and that we can just have and you know that's gonna be able to serve with us and all that? And and maybe don't call them away. Like, like maybe they're you know, and uh, and so I could just realize that that's what's happening. And so we our most recent hire was we actually brought on a guy that is uh a retired chaplain, Steve Mosier, um, who served with the Alliance for many years and is going to be our associate pastor, who will be able to be a pastor for our core, doesn't need to be developed, he's not looking to be sent. Um he's just gonna be with us and will at the same time be able to be a part of the sending, right? He can he has a lot of great wisdom that he can pour out into the those. So while we are continuing to want to be the sending church, we also want to make sure that we're caring well for our people who are here. And I think that that is something, I mean, think about it. If you s if we send off two 25 or 20, just over 20 people in two and a half years, that's I mean, our church shrunk by 20 people in that time. Yeah. And so we've been we're having to rebuild that just to try and maintain like so you mentioned it's that 60 number is larger than our average attendance. Our average attendance now is probably about 45 because we haven't fully regrown from that the 20 people we've sent out. So that's tough and it's scary. We just had an annual meeting recently. We actually also this last year didn't quite make budget. Like we didn't uh not enough giving came in. So we're asking that question um and wondering like what does this look like as we continue to move forward? Because one of the things we've committed is that we will give, like, if God is calling and developing and sending people, we're going to be supporting that. Like, not that we we don't provide full support, but we provide part of their support. And we have committed that that when God raises up another person, that's going to get added to what we're already giving. We're not gonna take away from the people that have already been sent out. And so a portion of our budget is set aside toward, you know, giving to support these people, over 10%, about 15% of our budget. And uh that number continues to grow as God continues to bring people. We have another young woman who is right now in the process of she just was appointed by the board, um, Courtney Olson. And uh she'll be leaving. The plan is for her to be leaving in uh January to head to France.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03So we told the the church, yes, we had a we're we had a bit of a budget deficit this year, but we have another person. So we're adding, we're not shrinking back from this. We're gonna continue to trust that God, if this is what God is doing, then he's gonna provide and we trust him to do so. But it is a little hard sometimes when you're wondering, well, where is that gonna come from? And uh so we're just continuing to watch if God at some point wants to say enough, like this is hit what he's been doing, so we're gonna stay involved as long as that's what he's doing. And if at some point that changes, then we trust that we'll see that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But as long as he continues to bring us people to send out, we trust that he's gonna provide for that to happen. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00Do you think maybe you could take us through one of the stories of somebody who's sends the call to cross-cultural missions and how the river walked them through that from discernment to being sent?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. That's a really interesting question because everybody's story has been really different.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03Let me just tell you a couple of different stories that I think might help. Yep. So we have a so one of the the most recent family that we sent out had come to the church, they had already felt the call to missions. But then things hadn't worked out maybe the way they'd planned. And so they were at the river for a while, and it was really a time for healing and for just uh rest and to just be for a while. That happened at the river. That they they ministered to us, we ministered to them, and it was just a great time. And eventually God brought back, brought them back to that calling and then made it happen and uh sent them out in a better place. Probably it was it was right for right. Like I we trust that God's timing was perfect, and this was the right time. And uh that was a like a very different thing, right? Like bringing them in, already having a call, but not being able to go. And then he uh works through them, develops, works, cares for them, and then recalls them in a way that is where when it's ready and good. We had a I mentioned before there was a so Trent and Sharon Thornton, who had been sent out right back, um, they actually retired a few years ago and they came to the river after they had retired and they shared uh, you know, just about ministry and missions and what the river had meant to them. And they had a baton that they then like for track and field, and they gave it to us and said, We're we're wanting to pass on the baton, like we've been serving, and now who's gonna like we're leaving the field, who's gonna take our place? And so we eventually gave that baton to this coup this family that then is now gone gone overseas, and they they still have it, right? They're having to watch every little that little thing that they're packing to send overseas, but they wanted to make sure they took that baton, right? But then at the same time, God brought us this young lady, Courtney Olson, who um was feeling this call to missions and and came and connected with our church. So she was already kind of feeling this draw, didn't know the alliance at all, didn't have a lot of connections with anything. And and she they God brought us brought her to us to develop and uh also time of of just really understanding God's calling on her life and dealing with some stuff within herself. Um and then and now she's in a place where she's gonna eventually be going. Um and then at the same time, we have a young girl who has been who has grown up in the church. She's now just finished her freshman year of high school. And at life this last year, she expressed a calling to go or see this film called Indonesia. It's something that she's seen just be celebrated and a part of what is just the norm. And she's like, okay, now I'm next to like I'm like I'm ready. I eventually want to be in this sending piece as well. And so it's like almost like this uh life cycle of like there's there's constantly these people that are that have just been sent, that are being sent, that are down the road, right? So like we have all this kind of happening at the same time. It just goes back to that kind of natural flow rather than a program that is developing the next one necessarily.
SPEAKER_00I think we're gonna uh set up for a little bit of a break here. We'll take a we'll be back in just a second. When we come back, what we'll do is we'll talk a bit about how pastors can take on this responsibility and space of the practical tools for how to model missions engagement for the congregation.
SPEAKER_03Sounds great.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So, Rob, I wanted to ask you a little bit about pastoral leadership, some of those sorts of themes. Yeah, what are some ways you think that pastors can model missions engagement for their congregations without necessarily maybe neglecting local shepherding?
SPEAKER_03I think for me, what one of the keys is helping this become part of the DNA of the church. Um making it part of our regular understanding of what it means to be a disciple, helping our congregation own the Great Commission. I think uh too often we can get so focused. I mean, in church, I think we can get focused on just being about us. Um, and then if we do branch out beyond that, it's basically just about us and our community. And so helping people recognize that it's about us, like we do have to care for the people who are already within the church. We have to disciple and build and equip and all of that. But we also do have to care for those lost right around us. Um, but we also are called to be a part of this global Great Commission. And so helping that to be a regular part of what it means to be a disciple. I would say that um helping our congregations understand that as being who we're called to be allows it to be something that is then okay to pursue, right? And that takes time, like building in that DNA. And some churches, uh especially depending upon where you're at. Like I remember um I have been at churches at different times that were very much expecting the pastor to be very focused on the people who were in the church. And sometimes it was like you had to be a little bit careful about how you expressed that. Like my even my desire to go and work from a local coffee shop might not have always been perceived well, maybe at some churches. And so I would say first and foremost, you have to work on that DNA, you have to make it a value for them, or else it's just gonna be they're gonna feel neglected. They're gonna feel like they're overlooked because you're chasing after something else.
SPEAKER_00So the thought that comes to mind is like you say that is visibility. Like what you cast what you cast light on and then draw attention to is the thing that the church is gonna pursue together. And you want that light to be big enough that it sees that whole mission. How we see the local people and their discipleship. We see that, the lights on that. The light is also on our community outside of us. The light is also on the people who are less like us who are nearby, and the light is also on people who are far away from us. Like we want the light to shine on all of that calling.
SPEAKER_03Right. That it's not something like you don't have to sacrifice one to do the other. Yeah. It's it's not a either or, it's a both and, right? Like all of it is, I mean, it's Acts 1.8. This is this is who we are to be as Christ followers. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00In your experience then, what has happened um in a church's heart when they have a shepherd who is personally engaged in global missions? Like, what happens to the church's heart when they have a pastor who loves global missions?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think the uh so we actually had our annual meeting recently, and one of the people mentioned that um a a church or an institution tends to um end up reflecting uh the life of their leader. Right. And so I would say that if you have a church where the pastor has that heart for missions, um, that's gonna gradually help form the DNA, at least if it's done well. And I would say that like if we as a church are struggling in that area, like if that doesn't seem to be a part of our DNA, then I think the key would be for the pastor to maybe to to look at themselves, like where where is like where am I with this? What is my where is my heartbeat for missions? It's gonna start with the pastor, right? Like if the pastor doesn't have that heart, it'd be hard for the church.
SPEAKER_00I think of the story of the kings and chronicles, like that era of Israel's history, where you see so much of the king goes one way and then the people go that way, but then when the king comes back, then the people come back, and this this reality and this burden of leadership that where we go really matters not just for our lives, but for the lives of the people that we are responsible for leading. And that what a great check for our hearts, where where does our heart land in alignment with Jesus' heart? Yeah, because we want the legal and the the humble, deep, profound calling of pastoring is to not be the one that they're following, but to help them follow Jesus and to get our hearts as closely aligned to his so that that practical reality of them following us looks more and more and more and more like them following Jesus.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and you can see that so much in Jesus' life, right? Like he constantly was seeing these crowds as being lost and being people without a shepherd.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And so he stopped and cared for them all the time. And uh even in his, I mean, the Great Commission itself, like his last words before heading off to be with the Father is uh, yeah, I want you to go and make disciples of all nations, all peoples.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's not just a call to overseas. I think that's a call to being disciple makers just in our life, like to make that a part of our DNA, that that's just who we are, not something we go and do, but something that is just naturally who we are. But it is also like very much embedded in the Great Commission is the global impact of it, that it is not just local.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03Local is a part of it, like we're supposed to be doing it here. But we're also supposed to be. I mean, how else is the the work ever gonna get done?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah. It just this might be a tangent, maybe this won't make the cut in the end, but this conversation makes me think of Jonah's story too, where it's the story of a guy so passionate for local, local ministry, local like well-being, local discipleship, local presence of God's work that he uh becomes a caricature of pushing back against God's global work. And and not just God's global work, but also I was listening to Tim Keller's sermon, he's talking about God's city work. You know, he's he's used to this over here, his environment, but God loves the city where the people are. He can't see the people because he's got too small a view of what God's greater mission is. We don't want to be pastors or church leaders or anything like Jonah, and that's his whole point. That's the point of his story. We can be misaligned like Jonah with God's heart, with Jesus' heart. But there's always a call to come back.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. As pastors, I think it is very easy for us. There's a lot we can be doing. There's a lot that can maintain our focus that can cause us to be busy doing God's work, right? Right. There's different so many different things we can focus on. Because of that, missions often gets left behind. And we see that in I mean, just look at the the numbers that talk about what giving is like to missions and the focus the number of people who are even going to the most unreached places of the world. Like we've neglected the Great Commission. We've we've really missed. I mean, it's it makes me wonder sometimes what Jesus thinks when he goes, This is the last instruction I gave you, and I've been gone now for 2,000 years. We wonder sometimes why he's taking so long to come home, but I wonder sometimes if he's wondering what's taken us so long to get going, to get out there and to complete this great commission.
SPEAKER_00You mentioned all the different things that we can get invested in in kingdom work. Sometimes, sometimes there's a call to pare that down, be more focused, find a balance of margin and rest. Sometimes there's seasons of high output that we're called to as well and sacrifice. But as we think about in and out of seasons, sometimes that sense of feeling stretched thin as pastors is just a reality. We want to find time to be filled up and to give out of being full. So in this journey that you've been on, where you've sent many people out, core people even, how have you found practical ways to not get burnt out as a as a pastor in all this?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it could be very easy to get burnt out. And um the last thing I would want to do is to put something more on a pastor, like pastor's plates are already so full, to just say, here's one more thing you need to do, need to focus on. And I think I'm hoping that as people have heard what I'm saying, that they're recognizing that this is something that God has been doing. My emphasis would not be here's a list of things you need to do, or here's something more you need to add to your schedule. It is more, I would say, seeking God and letting God reveal within us his passion for the world. Letting God reveal to us then what is our role in fulfilling that. Like God has been doing this, these things through the river, right? We don't do a lot of missions trips. We encourage people to be involved, and and some of our people take missions trips with other, but we as the church have not chosen to make that a big part of who we are. We don't really have the capacity for it right now, don't really have a an opportunity to make that a normal practice of what we do. There are things that that other churches that do that we don't do, and I think that that's fine. I think the key is to recognize, well, if God wants us to be involved in missions, then what does that look like for us? What is our what is our part? What is our role? And to not chase after things. Like I to me, one of the most influential passages for my life when it comes to ministry is John 15, the when Jesus talks about the vine and the branches. And I think as a um a branch, you could look at that both as me as a pastor, but also as my church, right? Our job is to focus on remaining in the vine. And so as a church, one of the things that I want to be careful about is to make sure that we are remaining tied into who Jesus is and what he wants for us, what he wants to give us. If I focus on the other end of the spectrum, the bearing fruit piece, I can get very busy manufacturing fruit. But instead, if you've hopefully you've been hearing in all of this, what God, what what's been happening with the sending is what we saw God doing. And so it's because we were really focusing on remaining in Him and recognized, hey, this is what God is doing. Let's join him, let's let him work. That's what keeps this from burning out and doing, you know, because it's not about us. It's not about like even the people, like it's amazes me, no end, that when when God sends people out, he brings new people. Like I like we're not going out seeking, hey, can you come and be a part of the river so that we can send you out? God is just bringing us people. So we're wanting to be faithful with the ones he's brought us. It takes the onus, the workload off of me and off of us as a church, and and just lets us try to follow God in this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. What what you said brought me back to something that we almost like just skipped over earlier on, because you were talking about how your church was just gathering together to pray. Uh, or or the elders were just getting together to pray over the service, and then later on, you were just praying through the building as Esau Benedict arrived. And it's not I don't know, saying it's not a church podcast, but like it's not the sepsiest answer, like to look at how can we have this ongoing, missional-focused, sending-oriented church. We want answers of how you produce fruit, but there's just this simple, humble step of are we praying and are we with Jesus? If we're doing that, do we trust that he is speaking and leading and working? And are we trusting to move in the direction that he he leads in that? And and maybe you we want a program, or maybe we want a three-step do these things, reorganize your work week. But probably and maybe the first work is prayer and being with him and then trusting that his spirit does the thing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think if anybody comes away from this podcast with like, here's what Rob has done, or here's what plan is for how you manufacture this in your church, then I think that this has not been good, right? Ultimately, everything that has been happening with sending at the river is because it's what God was doing. And the only part that we've played is is recognizing that. And that that comes from a posture of prayer. Yeah, I would say that definitely the most important thing is simply prayer, perfectly abiding in the Lord. Yeah, if there was any anything that somebody would take away from this, I think it would probably be that concept of seeking the Lord. Like, I don't want to see anybody out there trying to reproduce what's happening at the river. I want to see them simply letting God work and just joining him.
SPEAKER_00When when Jesus talks about the seeds that get planted and thrown out in the road, and he tells the story of leaning a good soil, good soil and bad soil. He gets to the end, and there are different metrics for how much is produced than any other good soil. It's all good soil, right? Because there's no statement made like you're supposed to get at least a hundredfold. Right. Otherwise, it's not enough. It truly is what grows comes from the one who sends the seed and it is good and we are excited about it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I think that's a really good point because I do think one of the problems that we sometimes have as a church is we get our eyes on metrics that um are very much can be very much man-made, very much about what we think success looks like. Because if you measure us by the metrics that are sometimes used, our church can look like a failure. You know what I mean? Like if you just look at the numbers, it can look I I I remember when I was going through going working on my masters, I we read a a book. The the book was by an author that people would know if I mentioned it. And uh the author mentioned how he had gone to a church and he remembered sitting at this church and looking up, and they had back in the day, they would have the sign that talked about the number of people who were there and you know, and number of membership, all that kind of stuff, and then the financial numbers. Years later, after he had gone off and become a pastor and done a lot of different things, he went back to for a funeral at that church, like 20 years later or something like that. And he saw that sign, and it was basically the same numbers, same basic numbers as it had been 20 years ago. And he talked about how sad it was for to recognize that this church. Um, and we had to talk about that in as the class, and I remember, I don't know if I was on an island or not, but I said, How dare that pastor, that this author, judge that church by these numbers when he doesn't know the story of what has happened in the over those 20 years? What if it's God's will for a church to be the same size for 20 years? But during that time, to have called out and sent like us a church that size, yeah, if you only look at these numbers, if we only look at the metrics, the river can look like a failure. I I think God's been at work at the river and that he is doing some great things. And and so I want to make sure that I don't miss that and that we celebrate what God is doing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, and I to be honest, to some extent, for me, it really helps me. I mean, for for a pastor of a small church, I get to celebrate things that are happening all over the world. Like these are because these are people that have been sent out from the river and we've maintained this idea that they're family, these are our successes. These are our like when when they share a story, that's our story.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03We talk about all the time about being a much bigger church than the number than the people who show up on Sunday mornings. This is we've got this family that is around the world and that God is using for kingdom impact in incredible ways. And we celebrate that and recognize that that's part of who we are.
SPEAKER_00Well, as we kind of wrap things up here, I want to make some space for you to speak directly to some different people who might be listening. And so if there's a pastor out there listening who wants his church to be this sort of standing church and doesn't exactly know where to start, what would you say would be some first steps that he could take this year?
SPEAKER_03Let me just say that I think that I've mentioned this many times before, but because this is something that God has been doing, my first place that I would want somebody to start would be prayer. Getting before the Lord, giving this, giving your church to the Lord. One of the things that I've I've had to be very careful about is that this church is not my church. It's not our church, right? Like it is God's church. And so we hold it very loosely with open hands that at any time, like he's the one who gets to decide what it looks like to build this. If I am not careful, I can find myself getting caught up in the numbers game and looking around and being there are times when I look around at on a Sunday morning and I go, oh, this is hard, this is sad, like there's a smaller group, whatever, right? And you can feel like you can feel that pressure. And so I don't want anybody to come into this thinking that it's easy, that it's um sending is tough. Like I there have been times when um we've got people that we we bring in and like we've hired them knowing that we're going to eventually send them off. And I'm training them to send them off. And then when the time finally comes and they come to me and they're like, Hey, um, you know, I've been sensing God's calling this, I've got some opportunities I'm actually interested in considering some things. There's a part of me that goes, wait a second. Like I almost feel like there's a part of me that wants to talk them out of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Because I'd like to have them just a little bit longer. Right. And I have to remind myself, no, this is who we are. This is what God is doing. I mean, just imagine if those 60 people or whatever they've gone out from the river were still at the river, we'd be doubled in size, more than doubled in size. Right. Right. But how much less kingdom impact would there have been? For me, um, I don't want it ever to make it sound like this has been an easy, simple thing.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03I wouldn't advise anybody to try and replicate this if it's not what God's calling them to do. But I would also say that there has been a joy in this that is indescribable. The ways God has allowed me, like just speaking selfishly, like God has given me the pleasure of being involved in the stories of so many people who have now gone out and are serving him around the world. Like it's really very rewarding.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And so I am very thankful. So I would say for anybody who is feeling a stirring from this, I would say that the number one thing, pray, seek God, um, ask him to work, and then watch and see what he's doing, and then join him, whatever that looks like, and be willing for it to be a up and down, roller coaster, all kinds of ride. Don't try to make it like it's gotta look like anyone out what anyone else is doing. One of the most important moments was um several years ago, after so we'd been doing this for a little while, it was a little weird, and then Dan Scarrow became our new DS. After he'd been here for a little while, a year or so, maybe two years, I don't remember. He wanted to meet with me and talk. And I'm thinking, okay, like he's gonna ask, he's gonna talk about where we're at as the church. And I in my head, I'm thinking, here's Dan, he's this big leadership guy. He's gonna come in and he's gonna look at our numbers and say, Well, you know, you haven't really grown. And I was nervous about this. I didn't know Dan well, didn't know what to expect. And instead, Dan talked about what was happening at the river. He had come visit us and and all that. And he said, I want to, I just want to free you from the expectations to try and be what other people say church is supposed to look like. He's like, I don't know what it is that God's doing. Like, I don't know how to explain all of this stuff that's happening. But he's like, I just give you the freedom to continue to pursue that, to continue to just don't, don't be worried about trying to be what a church is supposed to be on top of what God is already doing at the river, because you'll burn yourself out trying to do the things that the church that the world says the church is supposed to be, and you'll miss out on what it is that God is doing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And that was like such a freeing thing to be able to have permission then to say, okay, let's just do this, let's just go ahead and let God work and join him and be a part of this, even if it doesn't maybe meet the traditional ideas of success or whatever it might be that the church is exposed, supposed to be like from our standards. And that was huge. And I would say, to some extent, to the people who might be listening, to walk in that kind of freedom, to recognize that if God is doing something, it's his church, right? So let him do do what he wants to do. And I would say, now, as being somebody who's actually a part of the district leadership, if we really see that God is doing something different and exciting through you to fulfill his great commission, we're gonna get behind that. We're not gonna get in the way of that. So that would be my thoughts.
SPEAKER_00So pray, count the cost, understand what sending means, which all and also the joy that's out there, and then don't set an expectation for what that means to look like to be open to what God's doing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's a good way of putting it.
SPEAKER_00How about for some churches that could be listening, so leaders from these spaces who feel small and under resourced, how would you encourage them to take real steps forward?
SPEAKER_03I mean, that's my people, right? Like we are a small church. Right. Um, I will say this it's kind of scary and it it is it is not easy. I mean, like I said earlier, we've sent off about 20 in the last two and a half years. That that's a third of our congregation. That was that what the time, so right before that, our church was probably right around the 60 mark, maybe a little less than that. And uh so to send off a third of the congregation, that was scary because you need to add 22 people just to even keep pace. Yeah. I think it is scary. And so I wouldn't I want people to realize that. Um, but I also want to make sure as a small church, sometimes we can look at our our the church and and struggle. Like you can say, well, look, this is this is not very big. But at the river, one of the things we do is we um are constantly pointing to the fact that it isn't just about the people who are there on Sunday morning. This has actually become freeing because it our people, I don't think our people look at our church as being small anymore. Um I mean, we refer to it sometimes as, you know, this little church or whatever, but for the most part, they don't see it as small because they, when they see the church, they're also thinking of these people that are part of our family who are not there, who are serving the Lord in different places. That causes us to maybe look at ourselves differently. We just don't, it's not this kind of mindset uh that I think can sometimes infect us when we feel small. Um, instead, I think people look at it like we are vibrant, we are healthy, we are alive, and we're we're celebrating the stories of what God is doing. And it's also cool because those people come back to visit, and it's like this constant homecoming that we just get excited about and and celebrate.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think there's a there's a word in there for churches of all size too. There's there's a different experience being in a larger congregation and a smaller congregation, but scarcity mindset, like that is sending in any size and celebration of God's sending, that's a reality for all sizes. Like there's a there's a challenge laid down to your church regardless of what its context looks like, that Jesus' great commission is for you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Sometimes as a church, we're we're like, okay, well, I need to get to this size before I can then send out, right? That can always be like just a little bit more than we have if we're not careful.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03And I would say that I was guilty of that. When I came to the river, I did have a vision, I did have an expectation. The first year, the first year goal was stability because we were replanting the church. The five-year goal was presence in the community, and the 10-year goal was multiplication, that we were gonna plant another church. God met those one-year and five-year kind of goals, helped us to develop presence in the community, helped us to become more stable. Um, but the ten-year goal changed over time, right? I think in my head, I was thinking we're gonna get to like a hundred to one hundred and fifty and and be talking about sending out a church and then be able to. We never got to that number.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And instead of sending out a church, God started sending out people. It took me a while to maybe fully recognize that and embrace it. But if I was waiting till we get to a certain size, to we then address that next part of that vision, we never would have gotten there. Staying in tune to what it is that God is doing and not letting our vision get in the way of what it is that He is doing through us. Because God did make us into a multiplying, like He did do the multiplication goal, just in a different way than I expected. Being able to really embrace that when it comes, I think is huge.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, how about a final word of encouragement or challenge that you'd like to share with churches just about embracing their role in God's mission?
SPEAKER_03I think my word to pastors out there would simply be encouragement that I know it's hard. And I know that there are times when uh we can feel like failures or we can feel like, is it worth it? Um, you feel the struggle. Um and I would just my encouragement would be to not let the evil one cause us to let that idea of failure or success get in the way of us just simply following God. I don't want anybody to walk away from the podcast feeling like a failure because their church isn't doing something like this. Instead, I would hope that they're encouraged, that they recognize that God could do something like this through their church or any church. God could also do something very different that doesn't look like this.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03And so the main thing is simply what does God want to do? What I was telling our church is it feels like God is taking this little bit that we have to offer, and he is multiplying it in ways that we never could have done on our own. Helping this little church to impact the world in ways that we never, like we just cannot possibly do. And so I would encourage churches and pastors, especially those who are small, but any church and pastor, that if we simply offer what we have to offer, we can trust God to be able to take that and multiply it in ways as long as we're willing to follow Him.
SPEAKER_00Well, Rob, thank you so much. This conversation has been awesome. Really enjoyed getting to hear your story, the river story, and really you know, God's story. Like you said, it's been God's story all throughout.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Thanks. I really appreciate being here. And and I would also add, if there is any way I can ever help anyone with this, I am more than willing and available for that.
SPEAKER_00Amazing. We'll have some contact for the district in your role here. Sure. So thanks everybody. Thanks for the conversation.
SPEAKER_01Thank you.